#67: Ethical considerations of AI integration with Irwin Kramer
/If you are curious about the future of law, the ethical considerations of AI integration, and the insights of a seasoned legal mind, this is an episode you will not want to miss. Today, we uncover how lawyers navigate the fine line between leveraging AI for efficiency and upholding the ethical standards underpinning the legal profession. Also, we explore the innovative ways AI is being harnessed in legal research, contract analysis, and more, all while adhering to the ethical guidelines that ensure the integrity of legal Practice.
Join us as we dive deep into the world of Lawyers Ethically Using ChatGPT and AI in our enlightening conversation with Irwin Kramer, a lawyer who works in the fields of professional malpractice and disciplinary defense. As the managing partner of the esteemed litigation firm Kramer & Connolly, he has steered the ship in representing many clients ranging from Fortune 500 companies to global insurance carriers. With an impressive repertoire of trial and appellate experience spanning both state and federal courts, Irwin has garnered a profound understanding of the multifaceted legal landscape.
Irwin's influence extends far beyond his legal Practice. He is a dedicated educator who has imparted his knowledge at prestigious law schools, a prolific author who has enriched the field with his extensive publications, and the visionary behind The Legal Television Network—a platform aimed at improving public access to vital legal information.
Join Irwin and me as we discuss the following three questions and more!
1. What are the top three things an attorney can use chat GTP for in their work?
2. What are attorneys' top three ethical mistakes when using chat GTP and AI?
3. What are Irwin's top three favorite workflows when conducting legal tasks?
In our conversation, we cover the following:
[00:58] Tech Evolution in Legal Practice: From Legacy Systems to Seamless Connectivity
[05:50] Unleashing ChatGPT: Empowering Attorneys with AI for Enhanced Legal Practice
[16:24] Ethical Considerations in Embracing Legal AI: Balancing Tradition and Technological Advancements
[19:20] Ethical Pitfalls: Attorney Mistakes in the Realm of AI and Chat GPT
[21:21] Shifting Legal Horizons: Navigating Modern Legal Practice in an Evolving Landscape
Editor's Note: Sorry for getting tongue tied. For some reason, I had the GPT in ChatGPT reversed and kept saying "ChatGTP". Silly me! 🙃
Connect with Irwin:
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/irwinkramer/
Website: kramerslaw.com/
Attorney Grievances: attorneygrievances.com/attorney-profile/irwin-r-kramer
Baradmit.com: baradmit.com/blog/blogger/irwin-r-kramer
Mentioned in the episode:
A Chat With GPT: attorneygrievances.com/law-library/articles/artificial-intelligence-for-lawyers
Software & Cloud Services mentioned in the conversation:
Amicus Attorney: amicusattorney.com/
PC Law: PC Law
WordPerfect: WordPerfect
iPhone 13: iPhone 13
Dell Computers: Dell
Transcript:
Irwin is a highly accomplished attorney, recognized for his expertise in professional malpractice and disciplinary defense. As the managing partner of the AV-rated litigation firm, Kramer & Connolly, he has represented Fortune 500 companies, insurance carriers, and businesses worldwide in diverse legal matters. With a wealth of trial and appellate experience in state and federal courts, Mr. Kramer also brings a unique perspective on law practice and ethical challenges faced by attorneys. His contributions to the legal field extend beyond his practice; he has taught at prestigious law schools, published extensively, and founded The Legal Television Network to improve public access to legal information.
Enjoy!
[00:00:00] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: irwin, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. I appreciate you being here. And to get things started, please tell us what is your current tech setup?
[00:00:08] Irwin Kramer: Right now I'm looking at two different monitors. I will tell you that during the pandemic I was spoiled. In that I loved. Trying and arguing cases from the comfort of my own office. So I'd have my one monitor with my exhibits queued up the other that had the video itself on it. I thought it was fantastic. And when the pandemic ended and I had to drive to Annapolis from my Baltimore area home to try a case.
[00:00:43] Irwin Kramer: I thought this is ridiculous. I don't understand. I felt resentful that I had to actually drive to a courthouse to try a case. You know, why couldn't I do this in my office? So I think that was the silver lining in the terrible time we all went through with the Global Pandemic. But I use a number of programs to assist me in practice.
[00:01:06] Irwin Kramer: For many years I've been using Amicus Attorney as a practice management software tool. And I think I've used that since the mid nineties. Okay. I think I started with version one and I'm still using it to this day. I couple that with PC law for accounting. I. Check writing and trust account management.
[00:01:28] Irwin Kramer: Obviously, like most people in the world, I use Outlook for email. I will say the one area where I'm a bit of a legal dinosaur is that I still use Word perfect instead of word. And that's only because Wow. Wow. Because I had all this information, this legacy information. Right. That actually had been on.
[00:01:51] Irwin Kramer: Perfect. I kind of regret that years ago I didn't make the switch, but I actually do use both programs. Quite a bit because obviously clients and most of the world are Ms. Word environment, but I'm a PC environment, not Apple. And that's about the size of it really.
[00:02:10] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Wait, I have to ask, so you say you're a PC person, and what type of phone do you have?
[00:02:16] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Cellular phone.
[00:02:17] Irwin Kramer: Cellular. I have a now. There you go. You're right. I have an Apple iPhone. That is true. And how long is that? And I only have an Apple iPhone because I used to have an Android and my now 19 year old daughter, younger at the time, Told me that I was an absolute dinosaur and that I had to get an Apple iPhone.
[00:02:40] Irwin Kramer: And then I got an Apple iPhone that was like the latest and greatest. And actually I had a version more recent than the one she's using. Right. And now she's jealous and sorry that she ever recommended it. What, do you
[00:02:55] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: know what version
you
[00:02:55] Irwin Kramer: have? I think it's a 13, I wanna say.
[00:02:59] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Okay. And how do you find handling your office on an iPhone when you basically work in a Windows environment, does that cause any conflict?
[00:03:08] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Not
[00:03:08] Irwin Kramer: at all. It has my outlook on it. I really have not tried to quote, dial into my desktop. Which I think on a small screen, at least for me, would be a bit cumbersome. And you know, I think it, it works just fine as far as I'm concerned. Excellent. I do like the fact that even though many people decry the fact that, oh my God, now I'm always connected and there's always these expectations.
[00:03:37] Irwin Kramer: Frankly, I think the technology has made the world easier for lawyers.
[00:03:41] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I agree. so I have to ask what kind of computer is your desktop?
[00:03:45] Irwin Kramer: It is a Dell. Okay. I've had good experiences with 'em but I've also for multimedia use I actually do a fair amount of media work having worked in Baltimore area television for quite some time, as well as doing a lot of my own video editing.
[00:04:04] Irwin Kramer: I've had some other off-brand machines made for me that are. A bit quieter than the usual PC and Right. A bit more power that helped me run in an Adobe Premier environment. Excellent.
[00:04:18] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: And do you have a laptop for work, maybe shuttling between two
[00:04:22] Irwin Kramer: offices? I have a laptop for work.
[00:04:25] Irwin Kramer: I guess we could call it work, but really I just. Use it to watch YouTube videos and baseball games. I, if I could find a way to bill for that now that never have something.
[00:04:37] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Do you have a tablet? No. Okay. I does your daughter have a tablet? Yes. Can,
[00:04:44] Irwin Kramer: In other words I've bought tablets. It's not for
[00:04:47] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: me.
[00:04:47] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Alright, we're gonna keep this for work. How's that? Okay, so let's get into the questions.
[00:04:53] Q1: What are the top three things an attorney can use ChatGPT for in ther work?
[00:04:53] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Question one. What are the top three things an attorney can use Chat G T P for in their work?
[00:04:59] Irwin Kramer: I really don't know what the top three things are because I don't know that we have enough adoption that I've been able to compare notes.
[00:05:09] Irwin Kramer: Many of the lawyers that I speak with are like, yeah, I heard about that. Exactly. What is it? You know, now those are the lawyers that are still getting used to their fax machines and email and you remember how many years after Al Gore invented the internet, they were still doing seminars saying You need a website.
[00:05:28] Irwin Kramer: Yeah. Lawyers are slow adopters and I think that's a function of the fact that we work in a field that is steeped in tradition. We follow the past. Precedent, for example. So we're slow when it comes to change and adapting to change, but I think we're gonna need to step up our game because now the technology really.
[00:05:53] Irwin Kramer: Threatens our current way of life, but it also has the power to revolutionize everything that we do. So when I've been faced with this and lawyers are saying it's gonna replace us and all that, I'm like, It probably will replace you because you are not actually getting with the program and testing this out.
[00:06:16] Irwin Kramer: I do think there are many fantastic uses for it. One that I mentioned when we were off the air is I had it write a song about a lawyer who represents other lawyers with a flatulent problem to the tune of Folsom Prison Blues. And add Yiddish references, and I will say in seconds, it wrote a pretty nifty song for me.
[00:06:37] Irwin Kramer: I just can't figure out how to bill for that. But certainly for those who are blogging, for those who have to write articles, it's a very convenient starting point. Yes. I will tell you that yes, it is definitively not an end point. It's something that can help one, organize thoughts. And brainstorm.
[00:07:01] Irwin Kramer: Get ideas. But at the end of the day, you gotta make the work your own, at least at present. But right now, chat, G p t is in its infancy. Candidly, it's scary what it will probably do when it's further along in development. I'm certain it will be able to write briefs. I'm certain that it will be able to site check, fact check.
[00:07:26] Irwin Kramer: I'm certain that Westlaw and Lexus will be revolutionized in the way we can search for things using artificial intelligence. And there's no question that if it exponentially increases our efficiency. It might kill billable hours altogether once it's no longer taking quite as much time. Lawyers aren't desirous of a pay cut, but we are gonna have to find a different way to add value to our clients' lives, and maybe there will be less of a need for lawyers. I don't know. I'm not running for the hills at the moment or panicking.
[00:08:03] Irwin Kramer: But I think like most other tools, it'll be a great force of good. I have a feeling that it's going to lower the barriers of access to justice because there will be artificial intelligence solutions that will enable people who cannot afford us to nonetheless get some legal help. I think that's a very positive scenario.
[00:08:25] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Yeah. If I could interrupt for a second, , based from , the date of our recording, I recently posted a episode 65 with former chief judge Bridget, Mary McCormick, and I think one of her concluding lines in our interview was something to the effect of that chat, G T P will not replace us, but those attorneys who do not use chat, t p in their work will be replaced.
[00:08:46] Irwin Kramer: I think that's an excellent observation. If we are resistant to technology, right? We can't pretend to provide competent legal representation. Competence requires competence in technology. This is the year 2023. This is in 1973. Right. You need to get with the program, we certainly need to look at how can we be more efficient and the lawyers who are less efficient aren't providing the quality service that clients are going to demand, particularly when they know.
[00:09:23] Irwin Kramer: So much can be done now and certainly into the future at the push of a button.
[00:09:29] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I have two pinpoints I wanted to address with you while we're on this question. The first being, have you used chat G T P in any of
[00:09:36] Irwin Kramer: your work? I have used it. Because I actually do a fair amount of blogging@attorneygrievances.com, right bar admit.com for bar admit bar applicants facing character and fitness issues.
[00:09:50] Irwin Kramer: I've used it to start some articles. My usual, my prior to chat g PT approach was to see what else is out there in terms of articles on a given topic. I'd read up, I'd formulate thoughts and the like. Now what I do is I ask it some questions and it helps me brainstorm and all the rest, the finished product.
[00:10:15] Irwin Kramer: You will not see a resemblance per se to the initial ideas that I've gleaned from chat g p T, but I will say it's a time saver. So in that respect, I've used it. I haven't used it in the context of I. My legal work, client service work, yet in part because we're still learning a fair amount about the platform and I am concerned a bit about confidentiality issues.
[00:10:43] Irwin Kramer: So to feed it actual client information, right. To me would not be very useful. But I can see where, for example, the personal injury lawyer wanting to summarize a medical history of treatment and the like for purposes of getting a demand out can do it a lot more efficiently if they can simply feed it all in.
[00:11:05] Irwin Kramer: My understanding is that the program itself, the artificial intelligence doesn't store the information, but the provider of that. Right. That is the intermediary might, so I would caution lawyers in terms of what they feed into it, because remember, you're putting it out there in the ether. You don't really know exactly where it's going.
[00:11:26] Irwin Kramer: So I am concerned about it from that perspective in much the same way that many have been concerned about cloud applications. That having been said, I think . That problem is easily solved at some point. I,
[00:11:40] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: they can make a closed and they have closed versions of chat g pt. Right. And I'm sure that there'll be one made for pi personal injury for medical malpractice,
[00:11:52] Irwin Kramer: et cetera.
[00:11:53] Irwin Kramer: The applications are endless. I will say that I. I have a blog post where, you know, I joke that my my friend and Ben will only use initials here, G p T. Mr. T as he's affectionately known, posted that he could explain any legal concept to a 10 year old. So I asked him to explain race judicata to a 10 year old, and he goes into the chat, actually explains.
[00:12:22] Irwin Kramer: About a fight on the school playground. And wanting to change the rules of the game. And I said using my 10 year old mind, I said aren't you describing the law of the case doctrine? And it said, you know, you're right. I apologize. I was wrong. That is the law of the case doctrine. So to summarize race judicata and gave me another example and I said You know, you can't like, you know, re-litigate the same issue that's already been decided.
[00:12:48] Irwin Kramer: I said isn't that collateral Stoppel? And Chad, G p t said you know, you're right. I apologize again, that is collateral stoppel. And then gave me finally, after on the third attempt, right, right. The the actual explanation for race judicata in a way that a 10 year old could easily understand. I was impressed and it, and then afterwards it said, I really apologized for the earlier confusion and I thought, wow this does show something about artificial intelligence, because had that been an actual lawyer, they never would've apologized three times and admitted they were wrong.
[00:13:30] Irwin Kramer: So at least there are some advances that AI can provide over real lawyers even now.
[00:13:35] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I have an idea for your next article, have it explained to a 10 year old the Law of Perpetuities.
[00:13:42] Irwin Kramer: The problem is I don't understand it, so I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know if its explanation was right or wrong.
[00:13:48] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Forgive me.
[00:13:50] Irwin Kramer: In incidentally you know, we have a a Maryland lawyers Facebook group and fellow was stating how he he once recited the rule against perpetuity on a date to prove to his date that he was actually a lawyer. And I wrote back and I said, listen, I'm not a relationship expert, but if you're.
[00:14:09] Irwin Kramer: If you're quoting the rule against perpetuities on a date, I'm gonna assume it was an early evening.
[00:14:14] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: If the date actually even happened after that explanation. Yeah, like if you're like, like you're doing like, you know, like on match.com or whatever, and like you're having a back and forth with someone and
[00:14:24] Irwin Kramer: Nothing spells romance like the fertile octogenarian.
[00:14:28] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So believe some of the conversation that we've been having kind of leads into my second question, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask one particular pinpoint after I ask you the question.
[00:14:39] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So for our
[00:14:39] Q2: What are the top three ethical mistakes attorneys make when using chat, G P T and AI ?
[00:14:39] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: second question, were the top three ethical mistakes attorneys make when using chat, G T P and ai? And you were talking about how it's a great platform to start off writing something. And you and I had talked off camera about the attorney in the Southern district of New York who had chat G P T draft, or sorry, actually write his pleading.
[00:15:03] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Provide citations. And apparently he didn't read it, so he submitted to the court and opposing counsel like, Hey, we're not finding these citations, so what's going on? And the lawyer conceded that he had chat, G T P you know, write it out for him. And apparently he didn't read it, he didn't check the citations and you know, he's gonna be in trouble What are your thoughts on that? I mean, I recognize that this is a new platform and it's giving out not always the correct
[00:15:34] Irwin Kramer: answer. This was bound to happen, right? There are people who are in a hurry. They rely on things they should not. Right. Whether it's technology or something that's not at all technological.
[00:15:48] Irwin Kramer: We've all made similar mistakes. Obviously this is a big one. You need to check your work. I think today this artificial intelligence as demonstrated by my race judicata example, is not something you can simply take to the bank and rely on. I'm not certain that's going to be true in a year or two.
[00:16:11] Irwin Kramer: In fact, I think that Westlaw, Lexus, the, all the research, the computerized legal research services are going to be AI based and it will do the shepherd that we used to do for those of us old enough to remember books. Remember? Do you remember books? Yes, I do. Papyrus. It was this Substance you could hold in your hand and even lift weights with some of these reporters.
[00:16:41] Irwin Kramer: Now all they are useful for is taking photographs in front of, but they actually were once used, and I'll tell this to some of your podcast listeners who may not remember this, we actually did do research manually without computers at one time. Yeah. But all of that's gonna be revolutionized even more by the use of ai.
[00:17:03] Irwin Kramer: Right now it's not ready. It's in its infancy. I think frankly, one of the top, I don't know if it's an ethical mistake, but alluding to what the judge told you, and I would agree with this, one big mistake are the attorneys that don't even want to try it. Right. I think ultimately that becomes an ethical mistake because if you are reluctant to adopt technology, if you are reluctant to grow, Either technologically or in any other way, the likelihood is you're not going to maintain the quality of service and practice and representation that you need to provide.
[00:17:43] Irwin Kramer: And ethical mistakes tend to follow. So
[00:17:47] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: let me ask you if I may, a hypothetical ethical question. I'm an attorney. I am, I'm established and. For whatever reason, I refuse to do my Lexus research online. I have to use books. I have to go to the library, and I have to do the hand, you know, the hand. Ization, if you will, by going through the different books versus using a computer.
[00:18:13] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So you're sort of going to that next step. And of course, you know, now we're talking about moving from basically having to research ourselves on the computer to having the computer do it for us. So in the my hypo, is there an ethical duty not to use the old fashioned way?
[00:18:30] Irwin Kramer: I think there is. Okay. I can see an argument on both sides of the issue. But I don't think you get the quality out of manual research that you do with computerized. Now, there's one area where I think. Manual research probably did have a bit of an advantage, and that is sometimes we would get lost in the case law and stumble into things.
[00:18:58] Irwin Kramer: Right. And we don't stumble into as much online, but to rely on manual research, manual methods of performing our tasks is like keeping manual books. To manage your trust account. I consider that malpractice. Okay. We have all kinds of computer assisted approaches that may not be ai. But there's certainly a lot of technology that helps cut down on error.
[00:19:30] Irwin Kramer: Okay. And to fail to refrain from using it is to make your own work more error prone. But it's also, I think, If you love the book so much, that's fine, but if you're my lawyer, don't you charge me for all that extra time you're spending schlepping one Atlantic reporter after another in order to hunt down and then photocopy what you get as a result.
[00:20:01] Irwin Kramer: Please don't do that because if you do that, You're charging me because you are a Luddite and you don't wanna change with the times. I don't pay for that. That would be unethical.
[00:20:13] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So we've already talked about confidentiality sort of the second answer to the question. Do you have a third. Third ethical mistake that attorneys are still make are making with using chat G T P and ai?
[00:20:26] Irwin Kramer: No. Okay. Not that I can think of.
[00:20:30] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Between confidentiality checking your work. You know, keeping up to date with software keeping up to date with technology. Yeah, I could kind of see how we covered three, a little bit blurred all together, but we did cover three and I appreciate that.
[00:20:44] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So let's move on to our final question.
[00:20:46] Q3: What are your favorite top three workflows when doing work?
[00:20:46] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Erwin, what are your favorite top three workflows when doing
[00:20:50] Irwin Kramer: work?
[00:20:50] Irwin Kramer: I'm one of the early adopters of practice management software. I'm still one of its greatest advocates. Many years ago I used Amicus Attorney, as I mentioned earlier in the show, and I. Have used, and I put a lot of time in upfront to create what they call precedents, which frankly are workforce.
[00:21:14] Irwin Kramer: That is if you've ever handled a defense of a motor tort case in the circuit court in Maryland. There are certain things that absolutely happen, those precedents are tied to buttons that will automatically spit out my discovery and the like. So that what I'm able to do is instead of shuffling paper like so many litigators do, I spend my time on things that are unique to a case, not things that are standard.
[00:21:50] Irwin Kramer: Unlike many law firms who boast that they have all these templates and their assistants go in and change names and all this stuff, we don't do that. We put the time into creating the workflows, computerizing them, right? Having computer driven, menu driven templates that automatically populate with the information you put in when you open the file, right?
[00:22:16] Irwin Kramer: That then saves me time. I. Throughout the course of a litigation timeline. And in yours, to my client's benefit, but also to my benefit and that of my staff, namely, we spend our time using that muscle between our ears rather than repeating work and reinventing the wheel each and every time. And unfortunately I think that despite the fact.
[00:22:47] Irwin Kramer: This technology is nothing new. In fact, back when I started with Amicus, it was one of the only practice management programs out there today. There are numerous, such programs and they do all kinds of amazing things. And I think that to an attorney not using it, you are really. Adding enormous inefficiency to your process.
[00:23:12] Irwin Kramer: Now, you might not know any better or different because you've never used it or you know, I had one person who looked at it and I'm very fond of showing it off to people to help them with their practices. I have no secrets here. And one lawyer said, wow, that's fantastic. I would never do that though.
[00:23:32] Irwin Kramer: I'm like why not? It sounds like it would be a lot of work to set up. And that's true. But the payoff is in every single case thereafter, for the rest of your practicing life. The benefits are to your client and to you. Because you get to focus on those things Yeah. That are necessary.
[00:23:53] Irwin Kramer: It also can cut down on the support staff that you need and make the lives of your support staff much more pleasant. Because people would prefer, instead of doing things by rote and reinventing wheels, they prefer to use their brains. I think that's something that's critical. And it doesn't take chat.
[00:24:13] Irwin Kramer: Chat, G P T. And artificial intelligence innovations to get there. And yet unfortunately, the same lawyers that are skeptical of artificial intelligence haven't used their own intelligence to implement technology into their own practices. And that's unfortunate because they're suffering and their clients are suffering.
[00:24:34] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So you've talked about filling out forms automatically. Are there any two other things that you could talk about that you use in your practice?
[00:24:41] Irwin Kramer: For workflows? For example, as you know, I represent other lawyers. And some of the things that I do include preventive medicine, I do some law firm audits.
[00:24:51] Irwin Kramer: Okay. And I have something that I created a questionnaire off of Adobe. Fillable, P D F, that cool. I have radio buttons and all these things that are necessary, but it feeds me information that I can then use to help diagnose problems within a law firm. That's not terribly sophisticated computerization work.
[00:25:17] Irwin Kramer: But it nonetheless is using technology to assist my clients creating something that I can use to help them. I, my phone system itself is V O I P based. Okay. If I get a message from you, it's something that transcribes automatically and I know I don't have to go back and listen to a lot of things, but I also will use that same phone system with permission, of course, to conduct interviews of witnesses, recorded statements and things of that kind.
[00:25:53] Irwin Kramer: I happen to be very visual and graphic artistic and I guess in a way I do my own graphics. I create my own websites. I did that because I got tired of waiting for somebody else to do it. And I found, although I wasted a fair amount of time early on years ago that doing it myself, learning how it works, Helped me quite efficiently address some needs, but also I can now handle a pretty small auto tort for you if that's what I choose to do, and create something that looks like I hired this accident reconstructionist to diagram out every single thing that happened. What am I using? I'm using Photoshop, right?
[00:26:39] Irwin Kramer: All right, so there are a number of tools. I will create or edit a day in the life film on my own. Why? Because I know probably better than anyone I could hire exactly what it is I'm looking for. Now, of course, you have to have the skill to do it right. You have to have. Adopted this. And I have a bit of a media background, so that works for me.
[00:27:06] Irwin Kramer: But I will say it also has made my job much more interesting 'cause I enjoy doing that kind of work. And you might say that's not real legal work. Yeah, it is because we live in a multimedia world and people learn in more ways than just reading the text that you write. Right? So to ignore. All the senses that you can use to persuade and bring out your client's best position is to practice law with one hand tied behind your back.
[00:27:40] Irwin Kramer: I refuse to do that, and I think technology is a great way to add power to a presentation. Now, Some lawyers when they find a interesting piece of technology like PowerPoint, go crazy with it, right? They go overboard with it. You know, we've all been to C L E programs where we had to skip through as somebody gets through slide 85, and it is boring.
[00:28:09] Irwin Kramer: It is death by PowerPoint. Let's not forget the audience and the fact that we're still at the end of the day communicating. Not artificially, but with a human. The technology is wonderful to augment that and to streamline it. But to use it as a crutch. Right. Much as the unfortunate attorney in New York did with artificial intelligence.
[00:28:33] Irwin Kramer: And chat, G P T is to make a mistake in the other direction.
[00:28:37] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Just curious. I wanna take a step back. You mentioned VoIP, voiceover internet protocol. What were you, an earlier adopter? And if I may ask, what service do you use?
[00:28:48] Irwin Kramer: I use a local company. It's Chesapeake Telephone. I think it, I think they use a beacon system. I'm actually Looking at a ye link phone console. But I'm not an early adopter. I actually had a voicemail system that I nursed along for years until finally went kaputt in a storm surge and, I'm sorry.
[00:29:11] Irwin Kramer: Yeah. No. And at that point I, you know, got with the program and frankly found that it was just the voice clarity alone. Wow, wonderful. So I've had good success with it, but we've only, we've had it for probably about six months now, I wanna say, and I'm very pleased with it.
[00:29:30] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So other than the voice transcriptions, have you found any other programs that are baked in that, you know, can help integrate into your office system?
[00:29:40] Irwin Kramer: You know, you'll get a voicemail The audio file. Right. The wave file sent to your email as well. Yep. Sometimes people will leave messages that can be evidenced later on. Yep.
[00:29:57] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: And that's always that interesting how people can be that stupid. But anyway, I'm sorry, you know, stupid incriminating themselves, you know?
[00:30:06] Irwin Kramer: Exactly. I mean, that can happen. It also makes it easier to memorialize what a witness has to say if they authorize you to record them. So there are many things like that I think are very helpful. But also it's the type of system that you have a, an app for your cell phone.
[00:30:26] Irwin Kramer: Smartphone. You can make a call from anywhere without revealing your cell number. Yep. If necessary. Yep. And frankly, it's eliminated borders on the practice of law. I could be talking with you from the South of France and all you know is you called my office, you got me, and I'm working with you
[00:30:49] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: now.
[00:30:50] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Now, hold on. So I've noticed this issue come up recently that, so for instance, if you are in Maryland, but you happen to be on vacation in Florida, or you've moved to Florida, there could be some issues of U P L licensed practice of law. Amongst some others, and I know that the bars are really looking into, whether or not, what constitutes, practice of law in their state.
[00:31:15] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Are you practicing law in Florida even though you're only doing Maryland et cetera. And it's become a bit of a hodgepodge.
[00:31:23] Irwin Kramer: Yes. The law is starting to adapt. Like I said, lawyers are slow to adapt to change. But we have learned in the course of a pandemic that it's not all that important where you are.
[00:31:38] Irwin Kramer: It's what you do, where you are. Right. So federal lawyers, immigration lawyers, for example, right. Can be licensed in Oregon. And set up shop in Maryland for the practice of law. There's a federal overlay for that. So they're allowed to practice solely immigration law wherever they darn well, please, that's not as true for other state law, but it's becoming true.
[00:32:03] Irwin Kramer: So a case that you're alluding to in Maryland is Attorney Grievance Commission versus Jackson, which is a case that I handled. In which they found that the attorney did technically violate my client, did technically violate prohibitions on the unauthorized practice law because she was a DC lawyer setting up shop to practice DC law in Maryland.
[00:32:26] Irwin Kramer: Right. But then they dismiss, they unanimously dismissed all charges against my client saying, but the law is antiquated. We need to change that law. We need to adopt. What is going on in a trend of states nationwide that says, as long as you limit your practice within the scope of your licensure, the geographic scope is not what matters, but you're right.
[00:32:53] Irwin Kramer: They're not all states have gone that direction. Even Maryland hasn't yet, even though over a year ago, the court urged their rules committee to do it. The Luddites on the rules committee have been dragging their feet. And I should know because I'm on the rules committee and I on the rules committee the fact is that we're very slow to change, but the law has got to change to adopt.
[00:33:17] Irwin Kramer: The realities of a modern world and unfortunately, the unauthorized practice of law rules, many of which frankly make no sense to me at all anyway, but that's an entirely different show. You know, those rules are often antiquated. We've gotta change them. I don't think it matters. I can be vacationing in the South of France.
[00:33:37] Irwin Kramer: You won't necessarily know I'm vacationing in the south of France. But the reality is that I can be just as efficient anywhere on the planet as I am in my office where I'm talking to you right now.
[00:33:53] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Excellent. Excellent. And I think that is a great place to leave it. I want to thank you again for being on my podcast today.
[00:34:01] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Where can people
[00:34:02] Irwin Kramer: find you? You can find me a number of places online. Attorney grievances.com has a blog on ethical issues, the last two posts of which have been devoted to nothing other than our friend, G P t. I also have a blog for bar applicants facing character and fitness issues.
[00:34:23] Irwin Kramer: So it's the I can help you get your license and hopefully keep it, but bar admit.com has a blog there as well on the various issues that applicants face. You can certainly find me on either site and certainly look me up from there. If I can be of assistance to your listeners, certainly I'm happy to do
[00:34:42] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I'll be sure to have all of that on the blog post and also the recording post. And again, Irwin, I want to thank you very much. You have a great day.
[00:34:51] Irwin Kramer: You too, Michael. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:34:54] Irwin Kramer: Thanks.
