Tech Savvy Lawyer - Episode 63 - Robert Ingalls
[00:00:00] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Episode 63, from lawyering to Podcasting, A Recovering Lawyer's
[00:00:03] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Journey, Robert Engles of lawpods.
[00:00:06] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: My next guest is Robert Engels. Robert is a recovering attorney, professional
[00:00:23] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: speaker and founder of Law Pods, one of the first podcast production agencies for law firms at Law Pods Robert and his team helped some of the premier law firms in the world launch and grow branded podcasts that built relationships and drive revenue.
[00:00:36] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Join us as we talk about Robert's
[00:00:38] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: journey from practicing Law to being the producer of Lawyers, podcasts, and more. Enjoy. Hey everyone, just a quick shout out before we start. Are you enjoying the Texa Page podcast? Consider giving us a five star review at Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast feeds.
[00:00:53] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Also, consider buying us a cup of coffee or two from the link on our blog to help the phrase some of the production costs. Thanks and again, enjoy. Robert, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:03] Robert Ingalls: Hey, it's lovely to be here. I appreciate it. I've listened a few episodes of this and I really enjoy going down a tech rabbit hole, so I appreciate you having me.
[00:01:10] Robert Ingalls: Well, I appreciate
[00:01:11] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: you being here and to get things started, gotta ask,
[00:01:13] What is Robert's current Tech Setup?
[00:01:13] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: what is your current tech setup?
[00:01:15] Robert Ingalls: Oh wow. This could go on for a long time, but right now I am using the high PR 40. That's what you're hearing me through. And what is that PR 40 microphone. Ah, okay. Missed the microphone part. Yeah, go ahead.
[00:01:26] Robert Ingalls: High PR 40. That's this baby. Pretty sexy little mic there. And I love this mic as a special spot on my heart. I listened to my first podcast in September of 2015. Okay. Within 30 days I owned this microphone. Wow. And it says a little bit about who I am. A, I like to jump into stuff, but I also like to go big and cuz I mean this mic, I think at the time was like $330, which was a good bit of money to me at the time.
[00:01:50] Robert Ingalls: And so that's the mic I'm still using. I love it. And then it's attached to the H shock melt and the H L P L two T arm. So lots of hiles here. Yeah. And then that goes into the roader probe, which is if anybody's looking to get into podcasting. Mm-hmm. And they don't wanna really dive into the tech, get really too far down the rabbit hole on that.
[00:02:11] Robert Ingalls: The Roader is a really great machine. I've actually got a second one here, then I can't, I'll show it to you, but I know that we're just audio, but I see it. Yeah, I've got that. Got the roader on my desk. It really takes. The ability to have conversations in person and bring in people from the computer or mobile device and makes it a lot easier than it was when I first started.
[00:02:31] Robert Ingalls: You had to use a mixer and all kinds of different cords and Right, right. It was that the learning curve was steep.
[00:02:35] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Gotcha. Gotcha. But y would a typical, I don't think a typical podcaster would need something like
[00:02:41] Robert Ingalls: that. Yeah, generally not. It's, there's a few different things about it that make it really nice.
[00:02:45] Robert Ingalls: I feel like it's one of those things that you'll start to get to and realize, okay, this would actually be really nice to ha and your microphone, is there
[00:02:52] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: anything special about it? Does it have like a built-in condenser? Is there anything particularly special about
[00:02:57] Robert Ingalls: that? So this mic is a dynamic cardio mite.
[00:03:01] Robert Ingalls: And dynamic. Hey, I'm not a, I'm, I don't come from an audio background, but basically the dynamic is usually good for most podcasters who are especially hobbyist because where a condenser microphone is going to be very sensitive. So when you're in your spare bedroom and the heat kicks on, it's gonna pick up a lot of that room noise.
[00:03:22] Robert Ingalls: And if you're shuffling papers, if the cat is meowing next door, it's gonna pick up a lot of that. But your mouth noise is even. And when you have a dynamic mic, it's not gonna be quite as sensitive, but you're gonna get what you need. You're gonna get your voice in there. Mm-hmm. Without picking up too much background noise.
[00:03:38] Robert Ingalls: So a dynamic mic is pretty good for certainly a hobbyist. And then the cardio is just the pick up pattern. That means that this microphone's gonna pick up right in front of me. So if I kind of move around to the side, you don't hear me the same anymore, it's just picking up right here, and that's what you want, because the only thing I want you hearing for the most part is my voice.
[00:03:58] Robert Ingalls: Excellent. And what's that on your head? Yeah, these are the Sony. Always have to remember what they are. The Sony MDR, 75 0 6 s, and I ended up with those the same way I bought 'em at the same time I bought the microphone. Okay. And I was following this guy, cliff Ravens Craft. He was called the podcast man back in the day.
[00:04:16] Robert Ingalls: Okay? And he was one of the first people online teaching other people how to podcast. And I was following him and he had this whole setup of things. He's like, you should buy this and this. And these headphones were pretty popular. I think they're very popular. You see 'em in. When you see people editing in Hollywood, you'll see this specific headphone and I was like, go bigger, go home.
[00:04:35] Robert Ingalls: Right? And so that's why I got these and I ended up really liking them because I wear them all day when I'm having calls with clients no matter what I'm doing. This is what's on my head. And so I needed something that I could put on and keep on for eight hours that wouldn't hurt my head, and it's, it can be kinda hard to find headphones that fit that bill.
[00:04:52] Robert Ingalls: Excellent. Excellent. Well, what else do you have on there tech-wise? So, tech-wise in front of me, I always am using my MacBook Pro with the M one Pro chip on my word. That thing has changed my life. I was using the Intel chip up until the last few months and I switched over to this one. But this thing's great.
[00:05:10] Robert Ingalls: I became a Mac guy in the second year of law school. Okay. My HP died, had to get a computer, so I bought a used Mac. I was using it for about two weeks, and I said, I will. Like it would take so much now to ever make me go back and I stand by that. I'm just, I'm all in on the Mac world and then I'm hooked up to the Roader Pro.
[00:05:29] Robert Ingalls: Obviously we talked about that. And then I have just two basic 24 inch monitors. I think one's that a HP and one's asis. These are ones I've had for a few years now, and they. I don't handle, I don't do video editing or anything like that myself. Okay? So I have managed to convince myself not to purchase anything more because I can see what I need to see, and I have a really bad habit of convincing myself I need things, need this.
[00:05:52] Robert Ingalls: And so I'm so proud of myself that I'm still using these older monitors that were like 150 apiece. Oh, I think
[00:05:58] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I've got you B I've got right the Mac XDR monitor, which is, yeah. Goes for 6k. Cuz as I'm getting more into content ration. Yeah, I, and trust me, I love it. And then meanwhile I've got two RK lgs flanking me left and right.
[00:06:10] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So if I had an extra $12,000, I would go and get two other XDR monitors. But I think my wife even.
[00:06:17] Robert Ingalls: Yeah, I don't think, I don't know that my wife would notice, hopefully, but at the same time, I'll buy those monitors when I exit after my company exit. Well, what else do you have? So I have a few things that I keep really close to me.
[00:06:27] Robert Ingalls: I create a lot of content. It's with it virtually with clients or whether for myself, one of the things I would like to keep around is a shotgun mic. And yeah, that's, they come in all kinds. They use a road shotgun mic and they, you can get one that's u sb so you can grab it, you can plug it right into your computer and.
[00:06:45] Robert Ingalls: Stand somewhere and have it kind of pointed at you. Keep your mic outta frame if you want to. If you wanna create contact content where your mic's not in the frame. You can use a shotgun mic, hook it up to your phone, hook it up to your computer so you can use it to your webcam. And and that's something I like to use a lot.
[00:07:00] Robert Ingalls: And then I always keep a selfie stick that has a tripod on it because it's such a good content device. And I know selfie sticks gained a lot of ire and pop culture for a long time. But I mean, if you're making content, it's such a wonderful device to have and I don't think I ever take it and hold it and point it to myself and take pictures.
[00:07:16] Robert Ingalls: But I will hold it and create video or I'll use that tripod to set up the. Camera on it and hold it and pre-video with it. And then I always have a few different microphones around, depending on what I'm trying to do. Sometimes I want a different microphone in the shot. Mm-hmm. That's more aesthetic for me.
[00:07:32] Robert Ingalls: And I got, I have a couple things around that I used to use a lot. I have my scan tech. That was just my scan tech scanner was just scan snap, that's what it's called. Scan snap. Oh. Oh, okay. No. Which is perfectly a mainstay
[00:07:46] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: for almost any attorney, especially a solo school practitioner. I have one, I've had two.
[00:07:52] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: They're fantastic. Fuji
[00:07:54] Robert Ingalls: scans. Yeah, I used that, like that thing was just the core of my business. Yeah. Actually, I used to even carry it around with me. I would go to the clerk's office with it and plug it in. Mm-hmm. If I had like lots of stuff I needed to handle because I had a motor scanner and it was so slow and so terrible that I could put a hundred pages in this thing and right be done.
[00:08:11] Robert Ingalls: And I found that just toting it around in a suitcase. Actually. It was a good use of it. But I'll tell you, it's not even plugged in right now. I've just, my world has changed to the degree that every now and again, I need to scan something. And so I'll plug it in, I'll scan it, and then I'll take it in. Then I'll unplug it, and then we have a printer.
[00:08:27] Robert Ingalls: It's not even in my office anymore. I don't print anything anymore. What was your, I was
[00:08:31] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: about to say that you know what's being used less and less? More than the scan Snap is the printer. Yeah. And what printer did you have or do you have.
[00:08:40] Robert Ingalls: It's some kind of hp, I don't even remember the if we rewind the clock, I was just, I had some beast printers when I was practicing.
[00:08:47] Robert Ingalls: We had these beasts, these monster size Oh yeah, lasers. Cause we were doing mailers and I did unemployment benefits hearings for a long time and we would do mailers to them. So we were sending out. Thousand letters a week, and so I had these beastly printers and now we've slowed down so much that every two years I feel like it's about every two years, printer just stops working.
[00:09:07] Robert Ingalls: We go buy another a hundred dollars printer. It seems like they're disposable at this point. Seriously, it's every two to three years. They just stop working. We buy new one. We're even trying to figure out what's wrong with it. I find that amazing
[00:09:16] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: though, when you, especially if you have an HP printer, because the HP printers I've had over the years and mine show, I've been using them for like three decades.
[00:09:23] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: They last like 10 plus years, and when they die, it's rather unusual and I've only had to replace the printer once in here, but the last printer I got, Kurt, when I have, is a 5 0 7 DN and it's a laser jet. And it does automatic double side,
[00:09:39] Robert Ingalls: which is perfect. Nice. Has a really good success with the old. HP laser gen, black and whites.
[00:09:45] Robert Ingalls: Yeah. Like those things were beast. Yeah. But the ones we have now, like just because it's the only one in the house now, we always get the color printer. And I don't know, we have not had good success with those. Sorry, I have
[00:09:55] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: not purchased a color printer. I don't have a need for one. I can't think of a reason why I would need one.
[00:10:00] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: And plus there's like a staples for a Kinkos, right? Where you can just send it to if you need to have like some sort of something colored printed. And quite frankly, in 16 years old practice and. 30 years is a, all this fun stuff I've been doing as a student and as a lawyer and whatnot. I have not needed it to the color printer.
[00:10:18] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: So, wait, what phone are you using?
[00:10:20] Robert Ingalls: iPhone 13 Pro. Are you gonna get the 14? I'm not, so I am, I tr that's another area where I like to give myself credit. I don't upgrade every time and it's, I usually like, my last one was the 11. And I didn't do the 12, and then I finally did the 13 because it was a big enough jump.
[00:10:39] Robert Ingalls: And I mean, the, the technology starts to deteriorate a little bit to a point where your usability, your functionality on the phone starts to go down. Things take a little longer. Certain apps don't work as well. Right. That's definitely the threshold for me is when I'm doing something, if it starts to slow down, that's why I had to replace my computer.
[00:10:56] Robert Ingalls: I do a ton of recording for people, right? And so I'm hopping on and I need, I'm using resources. I need to have multiple programs that are pretty heavy running at one time. That's how my workflow goes. And so then I get on, I'm running a resource intensive pro app like Riverside to record my podcast for clients and the fan on my intel.
[00:11:16] Robert Ingalls: It was a nice intel, but the fan would start running. Yeah. And as a podcaster, that makes noise. It comes in your bike. And it just starts to slow the computer down a little bit. And so I was like, okay, I gotta upgrade. And that's kind of my threshold. My 11 started to slow down. I had even replaced the battery, but the battery was still a little shoddy sometimes it wouldn't make it through the day, and I need a battery that makes it through the day.
[00:11:35] Robert Ingalls: So even with a new battery, it wouldn't. And after a while, okay, now it's time. And then, so I got the 13th Pro, but then the 14th came out and there wasn't enough about it. That made me say, okay, cuz I look at it, I check it out, I see what, what? I go to the store. We have a store pretty close to us. I go over there, I look at it and I go, no, there.
[00:11:53] Robert Ingalls: There just wasn't enough about it that made me feel like I have to have this, that it was gonna change anything in any fundamental way and make my life easier or better. The camera's a big one for me. And this camera on the 13 Pro, it's outstanding. The cinematic mode, you can get that blurry background looks great.
[00:12:08] Robert Ingalls: Mm-hmm. But why not the max versus the pro? Oh, part of that, I didn't feel like I necessarily needed it. Okay. And, and part of it is kind of making, trying to think of the right word to use here, rationalizing the price. Okay. For the features. Right, right. Because when it comes to like the M one Pro. That's an E, that's easy for me.
[00:12:27] Robert Ingalls: It's easy for me to see the incredible difference between the M one chip and the M one Pro, or even the M two chip and the M one Pro. But for the 13th Pro to the max, I didn't see where that was going to. I wasn't able to rationalize to myself where that was going to make a noticeable difference in my life other than, ooh gi.
[00:12:45] Robert Ingalls: I'm giddy to have the new best thing. So a couple things. One,
[00:12:48] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: are you on any of their release programs, whether it be for the phone or for your computer,
[00:12:52] Robert Ingalls: the release programs? Tell me more. Lease. Oh, the lease programs. I'm not, I did lease a phone at one point, but I end up, I usually end up keeping my phone longer than two years.
[00:13:03] Robert Ingalls: Okay. And I don't like to be stuck either. And because I did lease one time and then I realized, oh, I wanna have this phone. And then after you, if you wanted to just keep it and not upgrade, then they'll sell it to you. But at that point you're still kind of paying a little bit more. So I've just, I decided to buy them.
[00:13:19] Robert Ingalls: I like owning them. Fair enough, and, and we'll see. I might change 'em by mind, but at this point that was something I, I don't have all of it. Well, then I have to ask, do you
[00:13:27] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: have an Apple business account?
[00:13:29] Robert Ingalls: I don't have an Apple business account. Is that something I should get? There's, yes. They're
[00:13:33] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: free and you get white glove service already with Apple, but this is white glove upon white glove.
[00:13:39] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: And on top of that, you can sort of get really small discounts if you spend enough over a certain time. And even though they're small discounts, they're discounts nevertheless. So when you can get a discount, take the discount the next time you're in an Apple store, I would just ask someone, Hey, how do I sign up for a business account?
[00:13:56] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: They'll help you right there and then. And it's been great. It
[00:13:59] Robert Ingalls: really has. Yeah, I love it. I spend a lot of money at the Apple store, so, but lastly
[00:14:04] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: the last tip I wanna mention before we move on is that I notice every now and then you have to like turn away from your mic cuz you have to cough or steeze or something.
[00:14:11] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: There's this device I'm holding up that I know my viewers have heard me talk about before called Mute me. M u t E.
[00:14:17] Robert Ingalls: Oh yeah. Me seen
[00:14:18] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: that. And earlier when we were off Mike, I actually accidentally put my coffee cup on, on the mute me button and I muted myself. That's why you couldn't hear me earlier. Yeah.
[00:14:26] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: But they're great little devices to have while
[00:14:29] Robert Ingalls: you're podcasting. Yeah, I've seen that. I love it. And I'll actually tell you if anybody was listening, they probably didn't notice. Me doing any of that because I have the roader and I just turn it right down. So like I turn the cough. It's kind of outta habit.
[00:14:41] Robert Ingalls: Right, right. But I always try to mute myself just because I've been at this a little while and I know how aggressive that sounds on your side, but you have to edit it and hopefully try to get it out. Well, that's why I have someone else do the editing for me. I understand. But,
[00:14:53] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: but I still go through when, like when there's long pauses, I still like to pull those out and whatnot to kind of keep things just smooth and streamlined for the
[00:14:59] Robert Ingalls: listener.
[00:15:00] Robert Ingalls: Yeah. I appreciate the listener. Yeah. Was there any
[00:15:02] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: other. Protect device you wanted to share
before
[00:15:05] Robert Ingalls: we get to the questions. So I'll tell you the, one of the best things to try to help a listener who's thinking about, Hey, I wanna maybe at least try my hand at podcasting or record some audio and have it sound good, is get a USB microphone.
[00:15:18] Robert Ingalls: They're really easy to use their plug and play like what I'm using right now. Now, hold
[00:15:23] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: on, I'm gonna make you pause that. Please, because we're gonna be getting into what are three key pieces of hardware or software a lawyer should be using when doing their podcast? There you go. That's number two. So we're gonna get there, but I'm gonna hold that and we're gonna start off with the questions, if that's okay.
[00:15:40] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Okay. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:15:41] Question #1: What are three reasons a lawyer should be doing a podcast?
[00:15:41] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Question number one, what are three reasons
[00:15:43] Robert Ingalls: a lawyer should be doing a podcast? So, three reasons. Three we do everything at three. I gotta love it. Questions, three answers. I'll start talking. You hold me to the three. Okay. The, I mean, one of the biggest is exposure, I think, is making sure that you are showing up because for a long time, lawyer marketing was word of mouth, right?
[00:16:04] Robert Ingalls: It was, this is my person, this is the lady that does my wills, this is my lawyer. And firms made a really successful living, establishing themselves, building their practice, and really having good word of mouth. There were yellow pages once upon a time. That was a really good way to do things, but. That's it's, that's a bygone error.
[00:16:25] Robert Ingalls: When I was still practicing law, I knew lawyers who were getting to the point where they were ready to retire, and they met with a broker to try to see if they could sell their firm, and they were astounded to find that their firm was worth 20%. Of what they were expecting it was gonna be worth because the market had changed and it just, they were, that was their kind of, their retirement plan was to be able to make a good bit of money selling that firm.
[00:16:48] Robert Ingalls: Right. And I'm sure that there's still places and still lawyers that can do that and, but word of mouth has changed. To Everybo. It's on. We're online now. Yeah. And we've saw lawyers for a long time that refused to get a website. We don't need a website. That's not how we do things. That's not how we get clients.
[00:17:04] Robert Ingalls: Not anymore. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And but how many waited too long? I. And they did the same thing with social media, and you're actually, you're still seeing it with social media that they waited and they waited, and then they finally got a Facebook account and they got that Facebook account when it was already too late, when the organic breach of Facebook was dead, right?
[00:17:22] Robert Ingalls: Then they got an Instagram account. When that started to go, then they jump on things once they're completely safe. But they've also kind of missed the window. Right. And you're seeing that same thing right now, like TikTok and some, I mean some, I know some companies are like, well, that's, they might have political, social reasons for deciding that they don't want their firm there.
[00:17:41] Robert Ingalls: But more often than not, I hear people tell me that they don't wanna be there. Be oh, that we're not getting in all that weird stuff that TikTok is. They have this idea of what it is. Instead of taking a moment to see what it is, right and understand the organic reach that TikTok is affording them right now.
[00:17:59] Robert Ingalls: YouTube shorts is very similar in Instagram reels. They're affording so much organic reach, and so when we're creating this content, we are showing up where the eyeballs are, where people are, and importantly, We're answering their question because in this moment people want answers. Most people are researching.
[00:18:18] Robert Ingalls: Even if you were to text me and say, Rob, I need a lawyer to do a family law matter for me in Wake County, I'm gonna say, here's a couple people that I've had good experience with. What's the first thing that you're gonna do? You might be the kind of person that calls them right away. Most people are gonna go to their website even with a warm recommendation.
[00:18:36] Robert Ingalls: You're gonna Google, you're gonna go to their website, you're probably gonna read a couple of reviews just to make sure that other people haven't had a bad experience. You're gonna see what they're about, what are they doing? And most people have questions. They need that lawyer, that family law lawyer, because they are considering a.
[00:18:51] Robert Ingalls: Maybe splitting up from their spouse. They have questions. Yeah. Should, can they take half the money in the bank account? Because what if they don't? And what would happen? Can they do this? Can they do that? What's gonna happen with the kids on Christmas? They have pain points. And if you're not making content, you're not answering those pain points, right?
[00:19:07] Robert Ingalls: You're hoping that someone will come to your website and that we'll see your video. That's like 60 seconds long, that shows all of the books that you've accumulated over your practice, and they're gonna go, wow, look at those books. That person really knows what they're talking about. And oh, 900 years of combined experience, well, I've gotta call them, right?
[00:19:25] Robert Ingalls: And that so many lawyers rely on that, and that's it. There's not a blog, there's not an faq. There's not. Video content. There's not podcast content answering questions. That's one of the biggest reasons that I think people should have a podcast, is because you need to be creating content that will answer questions for people that will start to build a relationship with them and will establish you as the expert in their mind.
[00:19:49] Robert Ingalls: But we're also looking at this idea of reciprocity as well. I mean, that that's very real with humans, where you are the person that gave them the information, but not only did you give 'em the information, made 'em feel better. That's a nice aspect. Had pain points. Yep. Yeah, they had pain points. They had fears and if you made good content and spoke directly to them, you let 'em know, I know what I'm talking about.
[00:20:10] Robert Ingalls: I've been here before and here's what's gonna happen next. Here's how we do this. I, we know how to do this together. That's going to relieve some of their anxieties. And that is valuable and, and I think it's undervalued in most lawyers' minds. They don't understand how valuable that good feeling you gave somebody is cuz.
[00:20:29] Robert Ingalls: What did somebody, there's a quote that says, people won't always remember what you say. They'll remember how you made 'em feel. We wanna make people feel good and at that point they're gonna feel okay. The, I know this person, I even know their sense of humor a little bit cause I listened to them. I'm gonna set an appointment.
[00:20:42] Robert Ingalls: Then you set that appointment and you have a conversation with 'em. You already know their voice. You already have this like good feeling for them the moment they open their mouth and where I feel like this word has been just abused in popular culture over the past year. I used to say, I used to say we are pre grooming someone to feel comfortable with us.
[00:21:00] Robert Ingalls: And now I need to come up with a different phrase, but we're really making the Yeah, pre grooming is not good. Right, right. Yeah. And, but we're getting them ready. We're getting them comfortable with us because at the end of that discussion, we're gonna ask 'em, write a check. $10,000, $20,000. We're gonna ask them to go on a journey with us, and even if it's like injury law or something, we're gonna ask 'em to sign a contract with us to say, Hey, we're your lawyer and we're gonna go do this together.
[00:21:22] Robert Ingalls: And if they haven't reached that level of comfort at the end of our discussion and they say, I'd like to think about it now, we have put ourselves in a situation where we're, are lots of signing that client if they leave, go to down drastic. And so content does a really good job of allowing them to get to know you and like you, and hopefully trust you.
[00:21:42] Robert Ingalls: And sign with you. That was a lot for kind of like pillar number one. Mm-hmm. But one of the greatest parts of a podcast. I'll go to pillar number two and I'll see if I can fish out a perfect one for three. It's a content marketing machine. That's probably the reason that companies like mine mm-hmm.
[00:21:56] Robert Ingalls: Didn't successful is when a, for a long time lawyers were creating content by writing. They're writing blogs. Right. And I think blogs are very helpful. You want content on your website, but one of the downsides to blogs is, They take a long time. Yeah. When you sit down, you have to, you're staring at the blank page first.
[00:22:14] Robert Ingalls: You have to come up with the idea, what am I gonna write about? What am gonna answer? Then I gotta write it. I gotta sit, I gotta write it. And if you're anything like me, you've gotta then throw it away and rewrite it. And then edit it and re-edit it. And then after you publish it, you've gotta notice some typos and come back and fix those.
[00:22:27] Robert Ingalls: And it's quite a process to get a blog post done. That's why a lot of lawyers put them in their business development plan. And the blog goes silent after like three or four posts because they're like, I don't have the time for this After practice law. My job is practicing law, not sitting around writing blog posts.
[00:22:41] Robert Ingalls: And what the podcast does such a phenomenal job of doing is you take that same prompt, what am I gonna write about? And you sit down on a microphone and you have a conversation with somebody else in the firm about it. You have a conversation with somebody outside, whether it's an expert, maybe it's the PI of your family law, maybe it's a doctor, if you are a PI attorney to talk about specific things, but you have a conversation that helps answer a specific question and 15 minutes most, I mean, most of those, especially informational type of things.
[00:23:07] Robert Ingalls: Around 15 minutes, maybe 20, not very long, sometimes 10. You have that conversation, and now if you've got a team, whether in-house or you're outsourcing, that's the last that you generally need to see it, your team is gonna edit it. They're gonna create show notes or a blog post from that episode that you made.
[00:23:24] Robert Ingalls: Right? Right. If they are capturing the video, which we strongly recommend capturing the video from every episode that you're doing. And you take that video, you edit that. Now, that's on YouTube and most of our clients actually get better listenership, viewership on YouTube than they do the podcast itself.
[00:23:41] Robert Ingalls: And so you put it on YouTube. Well,
[00:23:43] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: and go ahead, let's let, lemme ask you a question about that. So, alright. I've made a podcast. Alright. A podcast, not a video cast, not a video chat. Do I put my podcast? The audio
[00:23:53] Robert Ingalls: only on YouTube. Some people will listen to it. Yes. Okay. It, I mean, yeah. Well, is it,
[00:23:58] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: yes. Some people will listen to it, but will enough people listen to it to actually
[00:24:02] Robert Ingalls: make a difference?
[00:24:03] Robert Ingalls: For some shows they do. Okay. Some shows enjoy it. I mean there's, this is hotly debate. Cuz people, some people get wrapped in this, in the semantics of it and they'll say It's a podcast. It's not a video cast. I think that if you're creating content, you create content that speaks directly to your. Ideal listener, who's your ideal listener?
[00:24:19] Robert Ingalls: What do they want? If you have enough ideal listeners that enjoy listening to your podcast on YouTube, then you should put it there. And that's it's, I would never sit and listen to a podcast on YouTube. I might watch a video on YouTube that was a podcast. I very much so. I might enjoy that. Especially like comedians.
[00:24:36] Robert Ingalls: I do enjoy actually watching comedians interact with each other. It's a show, it's theater, but consistently we see numbers of people listening to podcasts on YouTube. That are pretty high. And some people will, they like to go to YouTube, find the podcast they like, and then just play it and then go to another tab and listen to it in the background.
[00:24:55] Robert Ingalls: But even audio only podcasts that have a static image on them. Mm-hmm. People listen to those on YouTube. Now your mileage may vary, depends on your show your're following things like that. So the, whether or not having 10 or 50 listens is worth the effort it takes. Put it on YouTube. I think it's very show specific, but if you're using a platform, zoom Records video, we use Riverside for all of our work records, high quality video.
[00:25:18] Robert Ingalls: We'll take that video and we will edit that video specifically to put it on YouTube for people who wanna watch it that way. Pardon
[00:25:25] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: the interruption. I hope you're enjoying this episode. Consider sharing this show with others, and please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your download peds.
[00:25:33] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: If you're listening directly from our blog, consider buying us a cup of coffee or two from the link on our blog to help to phrase some of the production costs. Thanks again, and enjoy. Well, let me ask you this. One thing that's become popular, I think, on YouTube is
[00:25:46] Robert Ingalls: the. Coffee
[00:25:47] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: shop setting or the fireplace setting and listening to some sort of long set of music like jazz or holiday music or punk rock band, if that's what you're into.
[00:26:00] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Or just hearing coffee shop noises and having, not a static picture, but like a slightly moving, constantly moving picture of like, for instance, snowfall in the background or a fireplace crackling. Would you recommend something like that for a podcast
[00:26:17] Robert Ingalls: or is that So I'll start with anything I say here should be seen as my anecdotal opinion.
[00:26:22] Robert Ingalls: Yes sir. Because I haven't seen any, some things I'll say, look, I've seen this is how it works and you can rely on this, there are companies that have created their entire business model around uploading your podcast audio and they will help you add moving pieces to it. Whether it's videos of different things, they'll let you drag and drop stuff to make your podcast audio have some visual appeal.
[00:26:47] Robert Ingalls: With that said, I think it's nice, I think at a minimum. I would maybe put a wave form. That way when somebody clicks on it, they see, oh, this, there's a moving picture here. I think anybody on YouTube generally knows that anyway. But that can give it maybe at the tiniest bit of visual appeal. But the, there are services that will allow you to put all kinds of different things without having to know how to use a video editor to drop Gotcha.
[00:27:09] Robert Ingalls: These things in. Gotcha. But I mean, I. So I don't know. At the end of the day, I don't know if those things are gonna add to somebody's enjoyment of watch of listening to your audio only podcast with some elements of video in it. So I guess it depends on the amount of work that it might take for you to put that together versus the amount of value you feel like you're getting out of it.
[00:27:28] Robert Ingalls: Excellent, excellent. But I think the actual video itself is always gonna be the best way to go. And I think I interrupted your
[00:27:34] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: response to your
[00:27:35] Robert Ingalls: answer. Number two. Oh, yeah. So, well, and one of the things we do, so we've got that video mm-hmm. That we put on YouTube. Okay. And then we take that in every video, whether it's 10, 15, 20 minutes, there's usually a, at a minimum, two to three little clips, little 62nd hits.
[00:27:49] Robert Ingalls: Mm-hmm. 32nd hits where you said something valuable, something that, cuz when we're starting this, we think about who's the listener, what do they want? Right? What are they struggling with, what can I give them that will make them a little bit better or answer their question. And I find that, what did I say in 30 seconds?
[00:28:05] Robert Ingalls: What did I say? In 60 seconds, I can even make, cut it down a little tighter. So I'm skipping some of the pauses and superfluous information and I'll cut that down into a little video with my branding on it. I'll create a template that has my branding because I mean, even if people don't stop and look at it, boom, they got the branding.
[00:28:21] Robert Ingalls: So as I'm sharing these from every episode they're being branded to in their social feeds, but it's gotten my branding, it's got a title that tells the person exactly what they can expect. Okay. So they see that title really quickly. They're qualifying this. Oh, that. That's actually something I'm dealing with.
[00:28:35] Robert Ingalls: I would like to know more. And then we've got the captions on it. Because as much as people like to watch video, they wanna read it first. Okay. They wanna make sure that this is actually for them. Cause think about it. I mean, you're, most of us are the same. We're scrolling. We don't want that video to start playing.
[00:28:49] Robert Ingalls: We do not want to hear people yelling at us as we're scrolling. It's muted generally. Right. And so we come past it. We see the title, we go, okay, that's a little bit for me. We see the captions, we're reading the captions. We go, oh, I do wanna know more about that. So we might touch the screen. Now we can hear it.
[00:29:06] Robert Ingalls: And even if we don't, we can follow along with the captions and. What we're doing there is we're creating content. People are more likely to engage with, they're more likely to see it than they would if you just put your link to your podcast up, because social platforms tend not to like links as well, especially if you're dealing with ones like Instagram that aren't even actually gonna have a link.
[00:29:23] Robert Ingalls: But social platforms in general don't show links the same way they do media content because links take eyeballs off the platform and that's their whole business model. And so you're actually gonna get content like this scene. But it allows somebody, it will a low, it's a low friction way of allowing somebody to engage with your content and to perhaps convert them.
[00:29:41] Robert Ingalls: Because if somebody sees a link on social media mm-hmm. Even if they see it. Mm-hmm. What are the odds today? If you're scrolling on LinkedIn, you see a link to a podcast you've never seen before, it might be on a topic that you have semi interest in. There's a thousand other podcasts on that topic. You're subscribed to five of them already.
[00:29:56] Robert Ingalls: What are the odds that you're gonna click that link and go on that journey with that person? It could go anywhere. The friction involved in converting that person is so high. But if you're scrolling and you see a title that grabs you visually appealing, you start to read those captions and you're like, now that is, I had never thought about it that way before.
[00:30:16] Robert Ingalls: That's interesting. You keep reading it and then at the end you could go, all right, they got me. I wanna hear that episode. You might not subscribe to the podcast, but you were converted in a way that that link almost certainly couldn't have converted you. Right. And so the Mar, the It's content marketing, you took that 15 minutes of sitting down at the microphone and talking.
[00:30:35] Robert Ingalls: Your team went and turned it in to all of these different pieces of content across your social feed. Mm-hmm. It's TikTok shorts on YouTube, Instagram reels, Facebook, LinkedIn. And you took those pieces of content, you put 'em out there from one episode, and now you've taken your impression. We did a case study recently.
[00:30:53] Robert Ingalls: On an episode between posting it to the website and posting it to podcasts like Apple Podcast, Spotify, all those places, right? Around 1400 impressions when you added on the rest of the social media impressions. From that, it added 11,000 more impressions. Wow. Now obviously the impression you get on the long form content is generally more valuable.
[00:31:13] Robert Ingalls: Somebody who's willing to engage with your long form content is usually getting a little bit more, developing the little more relationship, but 11,000 more impressions just by taking that content. Mm-hmm. Breaking it up, putting the full one on YouTube. Right. Putting the micro content, and that's just one cycle.
[00:31:27] Robert Ingalls: That's not taking additional videos. Mm-hmm. And then reusing the original videos a month later. Right. It's just one cycle from one episode. And so that ability to get that much content marketing with such a minimal time investment on the lawyer's side, because that was a pain point we knew we had to solve.
[00:31:43] Robert Ingalls: Lawyers don't have time. They do not have time, and so how can we allow them. To record from anywhere they are, and this is what, if they have an in-house team, this is what they can do, set 'em up with the right setup and they can record from wherever they are, 15 minute episodes. So you can spend an hour and a half per month and have a weekly show where you're creating all of that content that your team can then take and turn into all of this content marketing across multiple channels.
[00:32:08] Robert Ingalls: Excellent. So that's, those are long answers for two, and now I'm kind of like digging around and I'm like, what's a really good third one here? Well, actually I have it. I probably only have five more, but here's one that. Was criminally undervalued by me initially. Okay. And still I think is by a lot of people.
[00:32:23] Robert Ingalls: Is the network effect of a podcast right now? Me and you? Like we, hell, I think we talked for 30 minutes before you even hit record. We enjoyed each other. We started to get to know each other, sharing war stories with each other. Yes. And I know you a little bit now. And I got a good vibe for you, and now you're part of my network.
[00:32:42] Robert Ingalls: As things come up in the future, I know what you to do. And I said, oh I got this guy that you should talk to. And we have, we're add, we've added value to each other's network. Just by having this conversation, which you didn't have a podcast, the odds of us crossing paths are infinitely low.
[00:32:57] Robert Ingalls: We just wouldn't have seen each other out in the world. It's very unlikely. And so some lawyers will say, well, I don't have that kind of show. I disagree. Most of them do because the show isn't just F faq, it's your show. You can, it's not the kind of show people subscribe to and listen to every episode, depending.
[00:33:13] Robert Ingalls: A lot of them are, especially smaller type of firms where you're doing our injury work or family law work that is very f FAQ based because people call lawyers like they call plumbers when they have a problem and. So a lot of that stuff is they're looking for what they want, but it also gives you an opportunity to network with other lawyers.
[00:33:31] Robert Ingalls: You bring another lawyer from another jurisdiction to have a conversation on your podcast. And this is, a lot of my clients use this as a way to network with referral sources. I have clients who started their podcast solely to meet other lawyers and get to know their referral sources and they'll create content like one of 'em is called Trial or nation.
[00:33:51] Robert Ingalls: Michael Cowan, his entire show exists to educate, talk about things that he's done well, things that he's learned. He brings on other noteworthy lawyers and talks about big verdicts they got and what they did, and what did the defense do and how did you do it? Back A lot of trial skills and. But the reason the podcast exists is to help him generate referrals.
[00:34:12] Robert Ingalls: He wants you to get to know him, like him, trust him, send him your cases, or even work with him on your cases. And so the, his entire thing is the network effect. Meeting lawyers, educating lawyers, and increasing the size of his network and people that know him. And so the network effect of the podcast is incredible.
[00:34:28] Robert Ingalls: And this is, I don't know if this is a gray area or not, because I haven't seen opinions on it, but right now, like we're lawyers, we can't reach out. And say, Hey, I saw that you have a business, a technology business. I'd love to talk about representing you. Right, right. And, but I can get to know people in the world.
[00:34:48] Robert Ingalls: I can have conversations with them. And so I can reach out and say, I have a podcast where we interview some of the most successful CEOs in tech and talk about whatever it is that we talk about. Right. And now you're having a conversation with that person. On your podcast, you're developing rapport. No, like trust.
[00:35:04] Robert Ingalls: And at a minimum you are. Developing that relationship, you're adding them to your network, but you're also looking at somebody who might be a potential referral source. Hell, I mean, you're looking at somebody who could end up perhaps saying, man, I like the cut of their jib, and I think that this is somebody they really know what they're talking about.
[00:35:19] Robert Ingalls: The types of questions they ask me show that they have a deep understanding of my industry. They are excited about it. They're not just pushing paper around trying to make money. This is somebody who is invested and the ability to develop that relationship with somebody while not asking them for business and not, and the environment is outside of that.
[00:35:38] Robert Ingalls: That's not what you're there for. You're there to provide them value. You're providing them a platform. And even if you were call, were to call 'em up and say, I'd love to talk to you. What's the odds they're gonna take that call? They're busy. But when you give them the platform of your podcast, the that's something of value to them.
[00:35:53] Robert Ingalls: And so the network effect is, I could talk about it for a lot longer. It's immensely valuable. It's probably the thing that over the course of my podcast career has been the most valuable that has helped me grow personally and professionally. So let's go into our second question.
[00:36:07] Question #2: What are three key pieces of hardware or software a lawyer should be using when doing their podcast?
[00:36:07] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: What are three key pieces of hardware or software a lawyer should be using when doing their podcasts?
[00:36:12] Robert Ingalls: Hardware is probably the most important microphone. I think is going to be a big differentiator for people and if it wasn't so easy, I might not put as much importance on it. Cuz I think when you are using your voice to communicate to some, a lot of people are listening to it in their earbuds and that I think you should respect your listener and have halfway decent audio that isn't difficult for them to listen to, isn't offensive to the ear, but it's also so easy to have good audio now compared to how it used to be.
[00:36:42] Robert Ingalls: I have, I keep 'em around, but I have U SB microphones and there you can get a really good one for probably 60 bucks. Sampson, Q2 U. That's a good dynamic U USB microphone. Plug right into your computer, sits right on your desk and you're gonna generally sound pretty indistinguishable from a good mic like I'm talking into right now.
[00:37:03] Robert Ingalls: There's the A T R 2100 X, that's another one. That's, that one's probably 80 to a hundred bucks. If you wanna spend a little bit mo more money, there's the sure M V seven and it's kind of like the mic that I think Jerry Rogan's probably the most famous person to use. The sure SM seven B. It looks a lot like that microphone.
[00:37:22] Robert Ingalls: But it's a little bit smaller and it's u sb. You can plug it right into your computer and you can have a really professional sounding microphone. I think that mic's maybe two 20. So none of these are gonna break the bank, but they're going to make your sound so much better than if you're using a Skype mic.
[00:37:39] Robert Ingalls: They're just like something you got for a headset mic, right? Those mics are meant for communication and their fault. Wait
[00:37:44] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I have to ask, what do you think of my Blue Yeti?
[00:37:46] Robert Ingalls: So the Blue Yeti is a very good microphone. Do I need to upgrade? So well, and I don't know that I necessarily call it an upgrade.
[00:37:54] Robert Ingalls: You might, you could even call it a lateral move, but if I am, I don't use the Lou Yeti because it's a condenser mic. And it's like if you're in a sound studio, if you've got your room outfitted right, right. For really good sound. Mm-hmm. You've got sound conditioning on your walls. Right. And, and it's re it's really set up for good sound.
[00:38:14] Robert Ingalls: That's a great mic. It really is a great mic. If I was using the blue daddy right now, like I can see in your office, you've got stuff, you've got things around. Yeah. And that's gonna help a lot because. Right in the off. I'm in a spare bedroom in an apartment while we're waiting to close on our house right now.
[00:38:31] Robert Ingalls: And there's not a lot of furniture in here. It's kind of bare. The walls don't have anything on them. Right. The amount of room noise and echo I would get mm-hmm. With the blue Yeti compared to what I'm using right now. Right. I would be significant. Gotcha. And the Yeti is, it really is a very good mic, but for most casual people.
[00:38:49] Robert Ingalls: It can be a little sensitive if in, in a room environment that isn't completely sound treated. And so it's, it is a good mic. And I mean, and honestly, I don't think anybody's gonna stop listening. You sound good to me. I don't think anybody's gonna stop listening to your podcast cuz they're like, I don't know.
[00:39:03] Robert Ingalls: I feel like he might have a little bit more room tone than I'm accustomed too, so, no, I think you're doing very good. The, the Blue Yeti
[00:39:09] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: was the first thing I bought when I started considering a podcast. So, uh, it's good to
[00:39:13] Robert Ingalls: hear. Well now, Dude, they're sexy though. That's the, I think that's one of the reasons that the people like them is because like, you feel like Walter Cronkite with that thing.
[00:39:21] Robert Ingalls: It's massive. Massive, yes, yes. And it's got that hef to it. Yeah. And you just, you feel like the legitimate broadcaster with that thing in front of you. So I get the appeal. Are you saying
[00:39:29] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I'm not a legitimate
[00:39:30] Robert Ingalls: broadcaster? Stop. All right, so audio, that's one. Microphone hit the, you know that microphone, USB's?
[00:39:37] Robert Ingalls: Great. You can plug it right into whatever you're doing, and you can podcast from anywhere. Two. So your second thing that you're going to need, generally, you want some headphones, okay? You're gonna want something if you're doing your, if you're doing a solo podcast where you don't actually have to talk to anybody, nobody's voice is coming back to you, then you really don't need to worry about headphones, right?
[00:39:57] Robert Ingalls: You wanna make sure that you're close enough to the microphone, but the problem you run into in a nutshell, Is if you don't have headphones on and you're having a virtual interview, if you and I were talking right now, we, we have headphones on, but if you didn't have headphones on and you were hearing me through your speakers, now we're, we've run into an issue where we might have echo.
[00:40:17] Robert Ingalls: Yeah. Because my voice is coming outta your speakers and then it's going back into the microphone. Now, if you're using Zoom and almost any type of conferencing software has echo cancellation. But we're, we've been, what do we deal with Covid for? Who knows Felix, it's still happening. We all learned that that echo cancellation software is not perfect.
[00:40:35] Robert Ingalls: We end up somebody's echoing like, what is going on? Can we fix this? But when you're recording a podcast, it's more important than communication because communication when somebody is echoing, even if it's just a little bit, it's not that big of a deal. But when you're trying to listen to a podcast and you've got echo in it, it's very annoying.
[00:40:50] Robert Ingalls: And then in post-production, you might try to remove some of it. Your editor's gonna have a hard time with it. Mm-hmm. You can't remove all of it and it creates an a, a pretty bad experience for the listener. And so putting headphones on ensures and headphones that ideally will cover your ears. So like ones that go over your ears or ones that will plug into your ears that have a seal.
[00:41:10] Robert Ingalls: Right? Like little rubber. Yeah, little rubber tips. Yeah. Because if you're using, like apple earbuds are better than nothing, right? But if you're using apple earbuds, there's no seal there, right? And the sound will still come out a little bit. So just some, any ear over your headphones are gonna end up making a really big difference for you.
[00:41:27] Robert Ingalls: And then one more thing. This would be a software, cuz those really are the two hardware things that you really need to have. And on the software side, I, there's a lot of different ways to record your podcast with other people. You can use Zoom, you can use webinar, webinars, webinar software. I've seen use.
[00:41:45] Robert Ingalls: But one of my favorite products is, A platform called riverside.fm. And what that platform does is it allows you to have a face-to-face conversation, kinda like Zoom does on your web browser. So nobody has to download anything on their computer and it, the unique thing about it is it downloads, it records in real time directly to your browser and then uploads it.
[00:42:11] Robert Ingalls: And so if you're using. A 4K camera to record it. You can get 4K video from the guest. Most people are using ten eight p I think that's almost always sufficient, especially for anything that you're not gonna be broadcasting on anything bigger than a computer. And, but you're getting that 10 80 p camera feed where if you're using something like Zoom, usually you're getting the peak.
[00:42:34] Robert Ingalls: It comes through the internet. So it's a little bit distorted. And if the, if my Internet's bad, It's gonna cut out entirely sometimes, right? And the good thing about Riverside, it's recording everyone on separate tracks to their own browsers and then uploading it. So at the end. Even if the internet was bad, I've got flawless video and I've got flawless audio because it wasn't being recorded directly to the cloud.
[00:42:56] Robert Ingalls: It was being recorded locally and then uploaded to the cloud. And a big plus of that is if you have a guest that has a lot of background noise or they're using a really bad microphone, then anytime that they're not actually speaking, you can mute their track if they're on separate tracks. But if you're recording to something that's putting you on the same track as the guest in real time.
[00:43:17] Robert Ingalls: Gotcha, gotcha. You're gonna be stuck with a lot of that. They've got a, if they, I dealt with a doctor one time that kept birds and just the birds are in the background just the entire time. Right. And what was helpful was anytime he wasn't speaking, we've muted his track. And so the entire podcast wasn't just full.
[00:43:37] Robert Ingalls: Of those bird noises, and we didn't have to spend so much time trying to minimize some of them, so it wasn't quite so distracting. So those are probably my three favorite pieces that anybody can get started with. I'll throw one more thing on. If you're doing video, just get a ring light please. Yeah. Get something to illuminate the front of your face.
[00:43:53] Robert Ingalls: Yeah. And if you have, uh, if you wear glasses, this is a co common complaint. I, oh, I wear glasses and it's right in my it comes off my face by two little mat 45 degrees on each side of your head. Problem solve, but they're really inexpensive. I mean, I have pretty nice ring lights and I think I pay maybe $200 for the pair, but you can get good ring lights mm-hmm.
[00:44:15] Robert Ingalls: That are serviceable for $20. Oh yeah. And
[00:44:18] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: there's different types where, you know, large sizes, intensity
[00:44:22] Robert Ingalls: control. Right. You can change 'em for your skin tone. Yeah. And I've got two
[00:44:28] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: ring lights right now. Flanking me left and right. But I have decided within the last month to get. A face ring cam, circular one for the front.
[00:44:35] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Sure. Just because I think this just needs to be a little light in here. But you know, one thing about the headphones is that I've told like my clients for virtual hearings, which have really popped up and gotten traction in these last three years with Covid, is that even if you get the plugin kind with the in the ear, the cheap ones, it really helps cut down on perforation and noise and also echoing, but.
[00:44:58] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: One thing that I like about the on the ear headphones is that when you can cancel out the noise and you have the noise canceling ones, So as you and I are having this podcast, even though I have a one directional mic, at least that's in the settings, if there's noise because of puppies or because of garbage people outside or neighbors or whatever, I don't have to hear that.
[00:45:20] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: It's unlikely it's gonna be caught on the mic, but this way I'm not interrupted about something else going on that could interfere with the flow of our conversation. Sure. Which helps a lot and keeps me on track. Oh,
[00:45:32] Robert Ingalls: so I have to ask, what are your
[00:45:33] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: thoughts on. Bluetooth headphones.
[00:45:36] Robert Ingalls: I try to avoid them. Why?
[00:45:37] Robert Ingalls: Well, so well, here, let me back up cuz that was I don't think I understood the question when I started to answer it as well. Sure. I think Bluetooth headphones are fine if you're, but if you're not using them for the microphone on them. Yes. Because a lot of people will use their AirPods to try to record a podcast and.
[00:45:54] Robert Ingalls: They are not built for that. They're built for communication. Right? They are not built for micro. The microphone is meant to talk to somebody, not record right now. I'm like, I think it's fine. I've seen a lot. You're using the AirPods Pro? The AirPod Pro Max or whatever right now. Right? Which I wish I had, but that's another one of those things I think I said in the beginning, I haven't been able to rationalize.
[00:46:15] Robert Ingalls: The expenditure on that. And that's definitely something my wife would notice. So I do want them, because I've seen a number of different people I've talked to have those on and oh my gosh, they look so great. The, so as long as you're, if you're using them just to, mm-hmm. I think that's great. The downside, I think for some people, especially people that might not be quite as tech savvy, Ooh, I dropped it in.
[00:46:36] Robert Ingalls: There are, is the connection. Sometimes you'll put 'em on. And the connection will be jumping to your phone or jumping to your iPad and so the connection issue can be a problem. Now, if you're using AirPods and you're using a Mac and no one else is gonna be using your iPad or your phone, you're not likely to have that come up.
[00:46:57] Robert Ingalls: But the, this happened today, somebody was trying to use their AirPods on a call with us to record while using a Windows computer. And they were having a lot of trouble trying to connect their AirPods to a Windows computer. And you can do it, but there, there's an extra level. Of trying to make that connection happen.
[00:47:12] Robert Ingalls: And so if you feel comfortable and confident with connecting it, I think it's no problem. Every now and again, there's gonna be a latency issue where the Bluetooth headphone might be a little slower. I think for the most part, that's not gonna be an issue for most people. So if you text it out, you like it, use it.
[00:47:28] Robert Ingalls: I don't think there's anything wrong with using it for that. I would just caution against trying to use most Bluetooth headphones for a microphone. As a microphone.
[00:47:35] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: I got it. But for just for a headset, just to listen in. It's been fantastic. I love it in part because I'm always worried like a wire's gonna get in my way when I need to get to the keyboard, et cetera.
[00:47:46] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Well last for question number three.
[00:47:48] Questions #3: What are the three best ways to best market a lawyer hosted podcast?
[00:47:48] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: What are three ways to best market a lawyer hosted podcast?
[00:47:51] Robert Ingalls: So one of the most important ones that I see lawyers get it wrong is have it on your website. People will start a podcast. Sometimes they'll start, they'll call it a podcast. And it'll be on SoundCloud and nowhere else, right?
[00:48:04] Robert Ingalls: And so have it all on Apple Podcast cuz it's not on Apple Podcast. It might as well not exist. Spotify, same thing. You gotta have it there. You gotta have it on Google Podcast. Those are easy things to do. So make sure it's there, but make sure it's on your website because if it's not on your website, you're losing so much.
[00:48:19] Robert Ingalls: We, your website's, your storefront. You never want someone to walk into your store and have an employee at the store say, no, actually, to buy that, you gotta go over to this other place across town. You don't wanna send people out, they're on your website. We wanted 'em to stay there. One of the great things about making good content is the SEO value of the content.
[00:48:37] Robert Ingalls: It can help drive traffic if it's relevant and Google finds it and they like it. It's answering questions, but it's also nurturing the lead on your website. And what we're doing there is we're goo what we're telling Google, the longer people are staying on our website, the longer they're staying on pages.
[00:48:52] Robert Ingalls: We're telling Google, this is good content. You gave them this, they showed up, they got it, and they stayed. That's interesting content that they engaged with. That is going to help you. That's gonna tell Google. That's good content. So have it on your website. Don't just have a link to your podcast to send them somewhere else.
[00:49:07] Robert Ingalls: Always have links to Apple, Spotify, Google, if they want to listen, they should be able to leak. Don't hold 'em captive. It's not a good experience. But if they wanna stay, let 'em stay. Have it on their website. Cuz if it's not there, they might not follow a link to go listen to it. So make sure that it's, and do it like it's a blog.
[00:49:23] Robert Ingalls: Think about it like a blog. You've got your main blog page, right? Your main podcast page, right? And then each episode is an individual. So they can click in. Go ahead. Here's
[00:49:33] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: a silly question then. So I practice veterans law during the day at night. I have the tech savvy.page, which are really two different subjects.
[00:49:43] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Now, granted, there are some tech issues that I bring up that help me in my law practice veterans, but I don't think that the topic of what I do for the. Tech savvy lawyer is something necessarily that would drive traffic to my day job. I heard you talk, I think, off blank about some national trial lawyers that have their own podcast about their cases and trial law, et cetera.
[00:50:09] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: That makes sense. So I would presume. I would keep the
[00:50:12] Robert Ingalls: two separate. No. For something like that, I would keep it separate. I've seen lawyers that will take their side project and put it on their website. I, it comes back to something I said earlier. I, whenever I make any piece of content, I'm thinking about the end user.
[00:50:25] Robert Ingalls: Who is this for? What do they want? And if the end user of my website is somebody that wants veterans benefits and the end user of my podcast is a lawyer. That wants tech advice. Right? That is, that's there's no overlap. I mean, there might be. That's one person, right? Right. And so I'm not gonna. I'm not going to put that there.
[00:50:45] Robert Ingalls: I don't think that's very helpful. Now, I might link it, there might be a link in my bio that says, this is a podcast I host, but that's not gonna be the place I would have it live. Now I'm a person who can be convinced of almost anything with the appropriate amount of evidence. So if somebody was to ping me and say, you're outta your mind, you're a really good reason, and bullet point me why this matters.
[00:51:04] Robert Ingalls: Sure, but from my side, my opinion on it is I don't think that makes much sense. I would have a completely separate brand with its own website that I am building there, because I don't think those two things matter. But for a lot of lawyers, I would say 95% of the lawyers I work with have podcasts that are intended either to educate referral sources and, and, or sometimes it's, so are it to educate prospective clients.
[00:51:29] Robert Ingalls: And a lot of, especially the ones that educate prospective clients, we want that on our website. We want people to find answers to their questions. They can engage with us. It's got that SEO value to it and they can. It's a good place to have it. I feel like we've covered it, but it's, that's something I would very much recommend doing.
[00:51:44] Robert Ingalls: It's not hard to get it there and you lose a lot by not having it there, so just have it on your website and have it on all the social media platforms. All right, so that's one. That's one. And the second one we to, we covered this a little, so it's a little bit of a retread. Go ahead. But you need to be using that content the best.
[00:52:01] Robert Ingalls: The best marketing way I really think to get those extra impressions, to get it in front of people, is to be creating that full length video. To be creating the micro content and sharing it on your social media accounts. And that's it's, or the amount from a long-term ROI perspective, the amount of impressions you're going to get, the amount of people that are going to see what you're creating, the amount of traffic you're gonna be able to drive with this back to your podcast, back to your website.
[00:52:30] Robert Ingalls: Hopefully the ultimate goal is to turn that into revenue for the firm, is by creating all of that micro content from it and using that on your social channels, especially the ones that are giving you. Such high organic engagement because those are, you're go, it's gonna be pay to play. One of these is probably gonna be the big winner between YouTube shorts and TikTok and Instagram reels, and when that winner emerges.
[00:52:53] Robert Ingalls: So if and when that winner emerges, it's gonna become pay to play the same way the rest of 'em are. They're gonna have a ton of eyeballs. People are gonna then start paying a lot of money to have their content show up in front of people. When we post things to our Facebook business page, now almost nobody sees them.
[00:53:07] Robert Ingalls: And every now and again, one post will start to perform well. But generally speaking, you'll see a post get five views, and that's normal because Facebook business doesn't want your pages to be shown to people. They want you to pay them to run ads. And so that's making that micro content is gonna be one of the very best ways that you can market it.
[00:53:27] Robert Ingalls: And then another way that you can use some of that same content mm-hmm to market is to use paid ads on this content. You know exactly what the pain points that lead people to your door. Or to pick up the phone and call you, you know exactly what they are because they've asked you a thousand times in consults.
[00:53:45] Robert Ingalls: But you also know, because you've looked at your SEO report, you know what people are searching before they land on your site. And so we know thousands of questions that people wanna necessarily, what are the big ones? What are the ones that keep people up at night? We can create podcast episodes about that, make short form content from that and run ads.
[00:54:01] Robert Ingalls: We're gonna run a 32nd ad, a 62nd ad. That speaks directly to a pain point, and then we can use targeting to try to figure out if showing this to the right people. And this isn't my lane of expertise, but I work really close with SEO firms. I work really close with all kinds of legal marketing firms doing this kind of marketing, and so I understand it well enough.
[00:54:21] Robert Ingalls: But it's, that's an area where you can use the content you're already making to go that extra mile for you. So instead of hiring a video crew to come in and shoot that 32nd commercial, not to say you shouldn't do that sometimes I think they're very valuable, but you can take this content you've already created, right, and run really compelling ads with it.
[00:54:39] Robert Ingalls: Excellent.
[00:54:40] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Excellent. Boy, that's two.
[00:54:42] Robert Ingalls: So we need three. When I think running the ads was kind of my number three there. It's a little separate on posting your stuff there and then taking it and actually repurposing it for ads. Okay. And, but there's a, but there's a number of different ways that you can do this.
[00:54:55] Robert Ingalls: I think making sure that people know about it. In general, if you're the kind of lawyer that has an email list mm-hmm. It's very beneficial to tap that email list. I know not all lawyers have email list. Right. Family law lawyers not gonna put somebody on an email. I'll list and blast them. So their spouse can see that they're getting email from a family law attorney.
[00:55:12] Robert Ingalls: But if you're the kind of lawyer that has a list, those are your listeners right away. Your email list is your first group of listeners that are going to jump on it. And because they already wanna hear from you, they have an unsubscribed to your email list. And so, hey, we've got this podcast. I think it will be valuable to you.
[00:55:28] Robert Ingalls: And every time an episode comes out, shoot it out. And I always ask if you know someone this might be valuable to, it's a very small ask. I'm not saying, please do this, do that. I'm giving you value and asking for nothing almost exclusively. I'm not asking you to do anything for me. I'm saying I think this will be valuable for you.
[00:55:45] Robert Ingalls: It's a very GI give thing. And then you make that small ask of, Hey, if you know someone that you think would also find value in this, share it because that's where. So many people are going to find out about this type of content is, I've heard it called dark social, where it's outside the visibility of tracking and a podcast is a big one that falls into that.
[00:56:07] Robert Ingalls: Oh, because it, it's really hard to find, to track a listener. We're getting better at it, and the consumer, me hates that, but the marketer, me, Hey, what are you gonna do? And, but it's still harder to track a listener through if they're just listening to your podcast, but podcasts tend to grow a little more organically.
[00:56:24] Robert Ingalls: Yeah. They grow because Right. I talk to lawyers all day, every day. If somebody, if I bump into somebody and they say, Hey I'm having this issue, or we just get talking about tech, I'm gonna be like, oh, there's another podcast. And that's not a stat that you can measure. You can't measure where that listener came from because I knew about you.
[00:56:43] Robert Ingalls: I told that person. Right, right. And that's the way podcasts tend to grow is, and so we want to try to make sure that we're getting that core group of listeners now we can build them through our website, we can build them through social media. But building them through our newsletter, through our existing email list can be a way to at least let people know, because those people might not even wanna listen to every single episode, but they're gonna know you have it.
[00:57:07] Robert Ingalls: And now you've got people who are aware of it. And so when someone runs into something and they say, do you know? Or they start talking about something that. That can come up because people know about it and if they don't know about it, we moved it at chance down to zero. Excellent.
[00:57:22] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Excellent. Robert, I wanna thank you for joining us today.
[00:57:25] Where you can find Robert!
[00:57:25] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Where can people find you?
[00:57:26] Robert Ingalls: Law pods.com is the easiest, but I was very thoughtful when I started the company and we wanted to make sure that all you had to do was type law pods anywhere you are and you're gonna find us. So no matter what social platform you're on, no matter if you're on LinkedIn or Facebook or anywhere, you type in Law Pods and you're gonna find us.
[00:57:43] Robert Ingalls: Excellent. Well, again, thank you for
[00:57:45] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: joining us
[00:57:45] Robert Ingalls: and have a great day. No, it's been my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for joining me on this
[00:57:49] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: episode of the Tech Savvy lawyer.page podcast. Our next episode will be posted in about two weeks. If you have any ideas about a future episode, please contact me at Michael DJ
[00:57:58] Robert Ingalls: at the Tech Savvy
[00:57:59] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: lawyer.page.
[00:58:00] Michael D.J. Eisenberg: Have a great day and happy lawyering.
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